Transcript of SFP#13: Free Software game "0 A.D. Empires Ascendant" with Stanislas Dolcini
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WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:20.000 Welcome to the Software Freedom Podcast. This podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation Europe. 00:20.000 --> 00:24.000 We are a charity that empowers users to control technology. 00:24.000 --> 00:28.000 I'm Bonnie Merring and our guest for today is Stanislas Dolceini. 00:28.000 --> 00:36.000 Stanislas is a video game artist and contributes to the Free Software Video Game Zero AD Empires Accentant. 00:36.000 --> 00:42.000 Zero AD is a Free Software Ancient Warfare game, which is developed by the World Fire Games 00:42.000 --> 00:48.000 and Stanislas is also the current project leader of Zero AD Empires Accentant. 00:48.000 --> 00:50.000 Hi Stan. 00:50.000 --> 00:52.000 Hi. 00:52.000 --> 00:56.000 How are your first thoughts when you hear Free Software? 00:56.000 --> 01:06.000 Well, I think it's good. I have a very good feeling about Free Software. I'm a programmer for my other jobs 01:06.000 --> 01:12.000 so I tend to use stuff that is open source and free and leap when I care. 01:12.000 --> 01:18.000 I've always been someone who believes that it's important of sharing things 01:18.000 --> 01:22.000 and give them to the most people so they can make the most out of it. 01:22.000 --> 01:28.000 I'm really a free software enthusiast. 01:28.000 --> 01:34.000 How would you explain Zero AD Empires Accentance to a non-gamer? 01:34.000 --> 01:40.000 Well, I would say it's a game about building an empire. 01:40.000 --> 01:44.000 You would start with something really small, like a main building. 01:44.000 --> 01:46.000 You usually call the Civic Center. 01:46.000 --> 01:54.000 Starting from there, you would expand to colonize everything around the Civic Center 01:54.000 --> 02:04.000 and eventually fight with other people or the AI, the artificial intelligence that you can fight during the game. 02:04.000 --> 02:10.000 So, to put it simply, it's just a city builder game. 02:10.000 --> 02:16.000 If you've heard of Age of Empires, it's really similar to that game. 02:16.000 --> 02:18.000 Yeah, that's about it. 02:18.000 --> 02:24.000 And I was wondering, would you say that it's ever going to be finished 02:24.000 --> 02:28.000 and there's a final release? 02:28.000 --> 02:30.000 Well, I don't know. 02:30.000 --> 02:34.000 I'm pretty sure we are not any close to it. 02:34.000 --> 02:40.000 The thing is, it's open source, so anyone can feel contributing to the game 02:40.000 --> 02:42.000 and improving things. 02:42.000 --> 02:44.000 I don't think anything can ever be perfect. 02:44.000 --> 02:48.000 I think we can get close to something that is definitive 02:48.000 --> 02:52.000 and move on to another project. 02:52.000 --> 02:56.000 Actually, in the beginning of the project, they wanted to make several games. 02:56.000 --> 03:00.000 So, Welfare Games is the publisher. 03:00.000 --> 03:04.000 Azure AD is the name of the series, so, like Age of Empires. 03:04.000 --> 03:08.000 And the current game is Empires Incendent. 03:08.000 --> 03:12.000 And there was supposed to be a sequel called Empires Procedure, 03:12.000 --> 03:14.000 but we haven't started that yet. 03:14.000 --> 03:20.000 So, the idea was to make multiple games using the same engine. 03:20.000 --> 03:24.000 So, yeah, there are two things that are alpha by playing the game. 03:24.000 --> 03:26.000 There is the engine. 03:26.000 --> 03:28.000 Pyrogen is this. 03:28.000 --> 03:32.000 And there is the game, Empires Incendent. 03:32.000 --> 03:36.000 So, I think that the engine will never be finished. 03:36.000 --> 03:38.000 It's something that is constantly evolving, 03:38.000 --> 03:40.000 just like technology is constantly evolving. 03:40.000 --> 03:44.000 We always have new versions of languages, 03:44.000 --> 03:48.000 OSs, hardware, everything to support. 03:48.000 --> 03:52.000 So, it's going to be a constant fight to keep it working everywhere. 03:52.000 --> 03:58.000 But the game might get into somewhat finished state. 03:58.000 --> 04:00.000 But I don't think it's going to come soon, 04:00.000 --> 04:04.000 because we'll keep adding new features to the engine, 04:04.000 --> 04:08.000 making the game constantly evolving. 04:08.000 --> 04:12.000 What are some of the new features you have planned? 04:12.000 --> 04:18.000 There are a lot of things like, we wanted to add multiple attacks, 04:18.000 --> 04:22.000 per unit. So, for instance, an archer that would get attacked 04:22.000 --> 04:26.000 up close, which is like through a sword or something to fight 04:26.000 --> 04:30.000 in Nilly instead of ranged. 04:30.000 --> 04:32.000 Some people wanted to add acceleration, 04:32.000 --> 04:36.000 someone directional damage, someone trample, 04:36.000 --> 04:42.000 like when a horse gets into a pit of like units 04:42.000 --> 04:44.000 and just like smash everything around it. 04:44.000 --> 04:48.000 There are a lot of features that are depths 04:48.000 --> 04:52.000 to the fighting that we might want to add. 04:52.000 --> 04:56.000 But this is an entirely volunteer project. 04:56.000 --> 05:00.000 These things can take time. 05:00.000 --> 05:02.000 They need more time to get polished. 05:02.000 --> 05:08.000 And so, the features like can come really slow. 05:08.000 --> 05:12.000 So, there's still some features in the pipe 05:12.000 --> 05:14.000 that you're planning to implement, but you won't, 05:14.000 --> 05:18.000 you're not yet sure when they will be polished. 05:18.000 --> 05:20.000 When they will be implemented. 05:20.000 --> 05:22.000 I see, I see. 05:22.000 --> 05:24.000 I have also read that it's a really high priority for you 05:24.000 --> 05:28.000 and your team that you build stuff like very accurate 05:28.000 --> 05:30.000 and things like that. 05:30.000 --> 05:36.000 Yeah, there has been always a very eye drive 05:36.000 --> 05:40.000 to keep things historically accurate, 05:40.000 --> 05:44.000 which I mean a really, really frustrating way. 05:44.000 --> 05:46.000 For instance, there was some really nice buildings 05:46.000 --> 05:50.000 that were in Alpha 23 that we had to remove 05:50.000 --> 05:52.000 because they were not historically accurate. 05:52.000 --> 05:54.000 So, we try to keep things precise, 05:54.000 --> 05:58.000 like try to find archeological evidence 05:58.000 --> 06:02.000 about helmets, but swords, but whatever, 06:02.000 --> 06:06.000 or what the people to try to do at the time 06:06.000 --> 06:10.000 you give them meaningful technologies. 06:10.000 --> 06:14.000 And can in the hopes that you would learn some things 06:14.000 --> 06:16.000 from playing the game, like, I don't know, 06:16.000 --> 06:20.000 this, that sells invented barrels, for instance, 06:20.000 --> 06:22.000 or stuff like this. 06:22.000 --> 06:24.000 Oh, what do you say? 06:24.000 --> 06:26.000 Does it cost a lot of time? 06:26.000 --> 06:28.000 Because if I imagine this and if I think about 06:28.000 --> 06:30.000 how you have to do all this research, 06:30.000 --> 06:34.000 then you actually have to design a house 06:34.000 --> 06:38.000 or a barn or a horse or a gear. 06:38.000 --> 06:40.000 Yeah, it takes a lot of time. 06:40.000 --> 06:42.000 And usually it's not done by the same people. 06:42.000 --> 06:46.000 So, you get the nitpakers' historians 06:46.000 --> 06:48.000 and you get the artists that are trying to fit 06:48.000 --> 06:50.000 whatever they need to do. 06:50.000 --> 06:52.000 So, they have to change stuff a lot 06:52.000 --> 06:54.000 because, well, you don't know. 06:54.000 --> 06:56.000 No, they shouldn't be this there 06:56.000 --> 06:58.000 because it's not the same period 06:58.000 --> 07:00.000 or it doesn't belong there. 07:00.000 --> 07:02.000 And so, yeah, but it also 07:02.000 --> 07:04.000 allows people from different backgrounds 07:04.000 --> 07:08.000 and different expertise to join the project. 07:08.000 --> 07:10.000 So, for instance, if you're an historian, 07:10.000 --> 07:12.000 then you just want to get feedback and insights. 07:12.000 --> 07:14.000 It's good. 07:14.000 --> 07:16.000 One of the civilizations called the Kushits 07:16.000 --> 07:20.000 was entirely done by someone 07:20.000 --> 07:22.000 who would just say, oh, I love this civilization. 07:22.000 --> 07:24.000 I want to get a freak out into the game. 07:24.000 --> 07:26.000 Well, at least like, 07:26.000 --> 07:30.000 it's current Ethiopia, I think. 07:30.000 --> 07:32.000 But, yeah, it wanted to 07:32.000 --> 07:34.000 get that civilization to the game. 07:34.000 --> 07:36.000 So, it did a lot of research about 07:36.000 --> 07:38.000 archaeological findings, 07:38.000 --> 07:40.000 pictures and everything. 07:40.000 --> 07:42.000 And the research was so detailed 07:42.000 --> 07:48.000 that it motivated artists to start 07:48.000 --> 07:50.000 building stuff on top of it. 07:50.000 --> 07:52.000 And we got a new civilization in Alpha 23 07:52.000 --> 07:54.000 because of that. 07:54.000 --> 07:56.000 That's really impressive. 07:56.000 --> 07:58.000 Like, there's just one historian 07:58.000 --> 08:00.000 who is really a nerd 08:00.000 --> 08:02.000 for his field. 08:02.000 --> 08:04.000 And then it motivates a lot of people. 08:04.000 --> 08:06.000 Yeah. 08:06.000 --> 08:08.000 Regarding motivation, how did you start 08:08.000 --> 08:10.000 to contribute to Sierra A.D. 08:10.000 --> 08:12.000 Empire's Ascent? 08:12.000 --> 08:16.000 It's actually like not a funny story. 08:16.000 --> 08:20.000 I was working for Moots 08:20.000 --> 08:22.000 on another game called 08:22.000 --> 08:24.000 Intent Blade Warp End, 08:24.000 --> 08:26.000 which is a game where you play 08:26.000 --> 08:28.000 a strategic map 08:28.000 --> 08:30.000 and you try to conquer castle 08:30.000 --> 08:32.000 and you can also play 08:32.000 --> 08:34.000 in first person and, like, 08:34.000 --> 08:36.000 lead the siege to this castle. 08:36.000 --> 08:38.000 It's a pretty nice game. 08:38.000 --> 08:40.000 And what I wanted to do was 08:40.000 --> 08:42.000 learn to do 3D 08:42.000 --> 08:44.000 and, well, 3D art. 08:44.000 --> 08:46.000 And so I went on those forums 08:46.000 --> 08:48.000 and I started, like, making models. 08:48.000 --> 08:50.000 And it didn't go very well. 08:50.000 --> 08:52.000 Like, people were not 08:52.000 --> 08:54.000 really nice to me. 08:54.000 --> 08:56.000 They were pretty 08:56.000 --> 08:58.000 a lot of criticism. 08:58.000 --> 09:00.000 And it was not a really good time 09:00.000 --> 09:02.000 to be around. 09:02.000 --> 09:04.000 I was also really *****. 09:04.000 --> 09:06.000 So I didn't, like, quite understand 09:06.000 --> 09:08.000 what was going on. 09:08.000 --> 09:10.000 And I had, like, this 09:10.000 --> 09:12.000 magazine about video games 09:12.000 --> 09:14.000 called 09:14.000 --> 09:16.000 The Video for Uncom. 09:16.000 --> 09:18.000 And it just, like, happened to... 09:18.000 --> 09:20.000 It wasn't a video. It was joystick. 09:20.000 --> 09:22.000 And it just happened that 09:22.000 --> 09:24.000 they were talking about 0.0. 09:24.000 --> 09:26.000 And I was like, okay, what is this? 09:26.000 --> 09:28.000 Like, let's try it out. 09:28.000 --> 09:30.000 I ran the game the first time 09:30.000 --> 09:32.000 and it crashed. 09:32.000 --> 09:34.000 And, like, let go for a bit of time. 09:34.000 --> 09:36.000 And then I went back 09:36.000 --> 09:38.000 and tried to do 3D. 09:38.000 --> 09:40.000 And people would just, like, 09:40.000 --> 09:42.000 a bit nicer to me there. 09:42.000 --> 09:44.000 So I would just, like, go 09:44.000 --> 09:46.000 and try to make new models. 09:46.000 --> 09:48.000 For the game. 09:48.000 --> 09:50.000 So in case, people are not aware. 09:50.000 --> 09:52.000 There are a lot of modes for 0.0. 09:52.000 --> 09:54.000 Because, yeah, the game itself 09:54.000 --> 09:56.000 is a mode for the engine. 09:56.000 --> 09:58.000 So you can, like, to design anything you want. 09:58.000 --> 10:00.000 There is a mode for 10:00.000 --> 10:02.000 Hyrule Conquest, which is a Zelda 10:02.000 --> 10:04.000 Samt word. 10:04.000 --> 10:05.000 There are, like, ponies 10:05.000 --> 10:07.000 ascendant, which is, like, my little pony 10:07.000 --> 10:09.000 in the game. 10:09.000 --> 10:10.000 There are modes 10:10.000 --> 10:12.000 about medieval periods. 10:12.000 --> 10:14.000 There are modes about the American revolution. 10:14.000 --> 10:16.000 There are modes about pirates. 10:16.000 --> 10:19.000 Ancient civilization 10:19.000 --> 10:21.000 before the time frame of the radio. 10:21.000 --> 10:23.000 There are a lot of things like this. 10:23.000 --> 10:25.000 So I started doing two modes. 10:25.000 --> 10:27.000 Like, one was called Millennium AD. 10:27.000 --> 10:29.000 Which is, well, medieval period. 10:29.000 --> 10:34.000 Like, 500 AD to 1080. 10:34.000 --> 10:36.000 So it was, like, civilization, 10:36.000 --> 10:38.000 like, current engines, 10:38.000 --> 10:40.000 north. 10:40.000 --> 10:42.000 And, 10:43.000 --> 10:45.000 and Anglo-Saxons. 10:45.000 --> 10:47.000 So we started working on that. 10:47.000 --> 10:51.000 And this is how I owned my skills 10:51.000 --> 10:53.000 of 3D and everything. 10:53.000 --> 10:55.000 And after six years. 10:55.000 --> 10:58.000 So I started contributing to 0.0.0 in 2011. 10:58.000 --> 11:01.000 But it took 2017 for me to actually 11:01.000 --> 11:04.000 get recognized and get into the team. 11:04.000 --> 11:06.000 Okay. Oh, I got it for a long time. 11:06.000 --> 11:08.000 Yeah, that was a very long time there. 11:08.000 --> 11:10.000 It's been a lot of frustration in that time 11:10.000 --> 11:12.000 because I was feeling I was not good enough 11:12.000 --> 11:14.000 to do anything for a long time. 11:14.000 --> 11:16.000 And eventually I made it. 11:16.000 --> 11:20.000 And this way I could, like, empower new artists. 11:20.000 --> 11:23.000 Like, get them to do the same way I did. 11:23.000 --> 11:25.000 But maybe faster. 11:25.000 --> 11:27.000 So it wouldn't be as frustrating. 11:27.000 --> 11:28.000 Okay. 11:28.000 --> 11:30.000 Was this also your motivation 11:30.000 --> 11:31.000 then to become part of the leader? 11:31.000 --> 11:33.000 That you want to be able to, like, 11:33.000 --> 11:36.000 get other artists click on board? 11:37.000 --> 11:41.000 It kind of fell on me. 11:41.000 --> 11:44.000 I wasn't, like, planning to do this. 11:44.000 --> 11:47.000 Like, when the former project leader resigned, 11:47.000 --> 11:49.000 I was like, no, this is bad. 11:49.000 --> 11:51.000 Like, I don't want this. 11:51.000 --> 11:54.000 Please don't kill my project. 11:54.000 --> 11:57.000 And it took me quite some time to accept it. 11:57.000 --> 11:58.000 Like, he resigned. 11:58.000 --> 12:01.000 But I don't know, three years ago or something. 12:01.000 --> 12:04.000 And I've only taken title, like, 12:04.000 --> 12:06.000 a few months back. 12:06.000 --> 12:10.000 I didn't feel like I deserved title 12:10.000 --> 12:14.000 or like I was up to the task and everything. 12:14.000 --> 12:18.000 But, yeah, so it wasn't like a choice. 12:18.000 --> 12:20.000 Like, I want to be, I want to be project leader. 12:20.000 --> 12:23.000 It was more of, I don't want my project to die. 12:23.000 --> 12:25.000 And I want to do everything in my power 12:25.000 --> 12:29.000 to keep it alive and keep it bringing 12:29.000 --> 12:33.000 whatever it has brought to me and other people over the years. 12:33.000 --> 12:38.000 So, yeah, I really wanted to make it, well, last longer. 12:38.000 --> 12:41.000 Okay, so you decided to become project leader 12:41.000 --> 12:43.000 or to take on the stuff. 12:43.000 --> 12:45.000 Great responsibility. 12:45.000 --> 12:47.000 Yeah, great power. 12:47.000 --> 12:48.000 Okay. 12:48.000 --> 12:51.000 Would you say there were some modifications 12:51.000 --> 12:55.000 from people contributing to zero AD and per centen, 12:55.000 --> 13:00.000 which are really disliked or which were even against your values? 13:01.000 --> 13:04.000 Yeah, there are a lot of things. 13:04.000 --> 13:06.000 Well, first of all, 13:06.000 --> 13:10.000 history is not really good to women and people of color. 13:10.000 --> 13:15.000 So, sometimes you have to play it on the fine line 13:15.000 --> 13:18.000 between getting things historically accurate 13:18.000 --> 13:21.000 and being like really bad, 13:21.000 --> 13:23.000 well, having like really bad teachers 13:23.000 --> 13:26.000 because to justify something. 13:26.000 --> 13:28.000 For instance, for a long while, 13:28.000 --> 13:32.000 women would just boost males in their area 13:32.000 --> 13:34.000 because they were females, 13:34.000 --> 13:37.000 which is, well, a bit preposterous. 13:37.000 --> 13:40.000 So, this was one of the things that was removed 13:40.000 --> 13:43.000 like in 2004, which took a long time 13:43.000 --> 13:45.000 because it has been like, 13:45.000 --> 13:47.000 it had been there forever. 13:47.000 --> 13:51.000 There are some features about gameplay, 13:51.000 --> 13:55.000 about that are not like liked. 13:55.000 --> 13:58.000 So, to give a little bit of context, 13:58.000 --> 14:04.000 Alpha 24 came out two years after Alpha 23, 14:04.000 --> 14:07.000 which means during that time, 14:07.000 --> 14:10.000 a lot of things changed inside the team 14:10.000 --> 14:13.000 and inside the game, 14:13.000 --> 14:16.000 meaning a lot of new features were added 14:16.000 --> 14:19.000 but not tested or changed 14:19.000 --> 14:21.000 or things were cleaned up, 14:21.000 --> 14:23.000 made more historically accurate, 14:23.000 --> 14:25.000 added and everything. 14:25.000 --> 14:28.000 And so, when Alpha 24 came out, 14:28.000 --> 14:30.000 it was a complete different game. 14:30.000 --> 14:32.000 It stayed the same, 14:32.000 --> 14:34.000 like the bassist was the same, 14:34.000 --> 14:36.000 but the game played a lot differently. 14:36.000 --> 14:38.000 And so, people were not used to it 14:38.000 --> 14:40.000 and they got pretty angry at it. 14:40.000 --> 14:42.000 We got a lot of answers, 14:42.000 --> 14:44.000 we got a lot of threads created on the forums 14:44.000 --> 14:46.000 about how we did wrong 14:46.000 --> 14:48.000 and we butchered the game 14:48.000 --> 14:50.000 and stuff like this. 14:50.000 --> 14:53.000 Yeah, it wasn't a really good time to be around. 14:53.000 --> 14:56.000 Oh my gosh, that sounds very horrible. 14:56.000 --> 14:59.000 Yeah, and I mean, it's fine. 14:59.000 --> 15:01.000 You can be angry about your favorite game, 15:01.000 --> 15:03.000 like being changed. 15:03.000 --> 15:05.000 But I think a lot of people forget 15:05.000 --> 15:08.000 that we're just doing this on a free time, 15:08.000 --> 15:13.000 and well, motivation doesn't come naturally. 15:13.000 --> 15:16.000 You have to work for it sometimes, 15:16.000 --> 15:19.000 like if you have stuff to do that needs to be done 15:19.000 --> 15:20.000 but you don't want to do it. 15:20.000 --> 15:23.000 Like, this is where it starts lacking the most. 15:23.000 --> 15:25.000 Like, everybody's insulting you, 15:25.000 --> 15:27.000 but you know, you need to do things 15:27.000 --> 15:29.000 to get things rolling again. 15:29.000 --> 15:32.000 It's really hard to get the motivation you need. 15:32.000 --> 15:35.000 But how do you get your motivation to work for, 15:35.000 --> 15:36.000 in your free time, 15:36.000 --> 15:41.000 for a very nice and very beautiful design video game? 15:41.000 --> 15:46.000 I believe it's about doing something greater than myself. 15:46.000 --> 15:49.000 And something else has driven me. 15:49.000 --> 15:52.000 I don't really like doing things for myself only. 15:52.000 --> 15:55.000 I just want to do things that are meaningful to other people. 15:55.000 --> 15:58.000 So I think if that's where I'm drawing my strength, 15:58.000 --> 16:00.000 like from the community, 16:00.000 --> 16:02.000 and the people who enjoy the game, 16:02.000 --> 16:04.000 from the people who you meet at Evans, 16:04.000 --> 16:08.000 and that says, oh, this is the greatest game I've ever played. 16:08.000 --> 16:10.000 I played all the time, 16:10.000 --> 16:12.000 or sometimes I once made a joke 16:12.000 --> 16:14.000 about the game winning his life 16:14.000 --> 16:16.000 and stopped playing it. 16:16.000 --> 16:18.000 But you know, those people, 16:18.000 --> 16:20.000 those people that are really into it, 16:20.000 --> 16:23.000 these are the people we do it for. 16:23.000 --> 16:26.000 And of course, there are some things that are nice. 16:26.000 --> 16:30.000 Like, I don't know why I just enjoy doing art sometimes. 16:30.000 --> 16:32.000 So I would just like stop, 16:32.000 --> 16:33.000 and everything I'm doing 16:33.000 --> 16:35.000 and just make a few icons for the game 16:35.000 --> 16:36.000 and just feel good about them. 16:36.000 --> 16:38.000 And then it gives you a little bit more motivation 16:38.000 --> 16:41.000 to do the boring task you have to do. 16:41.000 --> 16:43.000 I see. 16:43.000 --> 16:45.000 That sounds very nice as well. 16:45.000 --> 16:48.000 I also have another question for 16:48.000 --> 16:50.000 regarding the game in general, 16:50.000 --> 16:52.000 and this would be 16:52.000 --> 16:54.000 more personal kind of question for you, 16:54.000 --> 16:56.000 which is your favorite tribe, 16:56.000 --> 16:59.000 character, or even building in the game? 16:59.000 --> 17:02.000 That's a good question. 17:02.000 --> 17:06.000 Well, I really like one of the building 17:06.000 --> 17:09.000 that was which moved in it for 24. 17:09.000 --> 17:12.000 It was the gold tavern. 17:12.000 --> 17:15.000 Yeah, I really like that building. 17:15.000 --> 17:17.000 But most, I think, 17:17.000 --> 17:19.000 I really like the goals, 17:19.000 --> 17:21.000 the civilization. 17:21.000 --> 17:24.000 Like, it's one of the civilization. 17:24.000 --> 17:26.000 I contributed to the most, I think, 17:26.000 --> 17:27.000 and it's just like, 17:27.000 --> 17:29.000 well, it feels like home, I think. 17:29.000 --> 17:31.000 Ah, okay, very nice. 17:31.000 --> 17:33.000 For me personally, I, 17:33.000 --> 17:35.000 so far, I like the patience the most, 17:35.000 --> 17:36.000 to be honest. 17:36.000 --> 17:37.000 I don't know. 17:37.000 --> 17:40.000 I really like them. 17:40.000 --> 17:42.000 Ah, yeah, well, a lot of civilization. 17:42.000 --> 17:44.000 I think a lot of people consider the versions 17:44.000 --> 17:47.000 to be the one lacking love the most. 17:47.000 --> 17:50.000 We haven't touched them in a while, 17:50.000 --> 17:53.000 and they could probably use some kind of, 17:53.000 --> 17:55.000 like, new models and improvements. 17:55.000 --> 17:57.000 But they're pretty great. 17:57.000 --> 17:59.000 And I was really happy that two contributors 17:59.000 --> 18:03.000 stepped up to do the voices for them. 18:03.000 --> 18:07.000 Ah, okay, so people also contribute 18:07.000 --> 18:11.000 by doing sound samples or stuff like that. 18:11.000 --> 18:14.000 Yeah, you can actually contribute by doing a lot of things. 18:14.000 --> 18:16.000 So you can do 3D art, you can do programming, 18:16.000 --> 18:19.000 you can do social media stuff, 18:19.000 --> 18:21.000 you can do forum moderation, 18:21.000 --> 18:22.000 you can do... 18:22.000 --> 18:24.000 But you can also do sound design, 18:24.000 --> 18:26.000 you can create new sounds for the gaming, 18:26.000 --> 18:28.000 and you can record voices, 18:28.000 --> 18:32.000 so they can be used for civilization. 18:32.000 --> 18:34.000 For those voices, 18:34.000 --> 18:38.000 they also wanted to have them historically accurate. 18:38.000 --> 18:40.000 I mean, as much as possible, 18:40.000 --> 18:42.000 because it's a bit hard to know 18:42.000 --> 18:46.000 someone from 2000 years ago would just speak. 18:46.000 --> 18:49.000 But so, Persians play, 18:49.000 --> 18:52.000 speak some kind of Farsi, I think. 18:52.000 --> 18:56.000 Cushits, I actually did the Cushit voices 18:56.000 --> 18:59.000 with my ex-girlfriend, 18:59.000 --> 19:01.000 and they speak Cushit, 19:01.000 --> 19:03.000 or 80k, whatever. 19:03.000 --> 19:05.000 So, yeah, it's actually like, 19:05.000 --> 19:09.000 somebody did the research and did the phonetics and stuff. 19:09.000 --> 19:13.000 So we could just like pronounce the words like they would. 19:13.000 --> 19:15.000 So we also have Greek and Latin, 19:15.000 --> 19:18.000 and that's about it, 19:18.000 --> 19:22.000 and we hope to be able to add more in the future. 19:22.000 --> 19:26.000 I see you're really, really, historically accurate, 19:26.000 --> 19:30.000 how many people participate in the development of 080? 19:30.000 --> 19:36.000 It's hard to say, because when you say, I don't know, 20 people. 19:36.000 --> 19:41.000 Most people imagine 20 people working on their day job. 19:41.000 --> 19:44.000 So 8 hours per day and everything. 19:44.000 --> 19:45.000 But it's not like that. 19:45.000 --> 19:50.000 So, officially in the team, there are probably 20 people. 19:50.000 --> 19:56.000 But in terms of activity, we're more like two or three people, 19:56.000 --> 20:03.000 like active four hours a day or something, which is like a lot less. 20:03.000 --> 20:07.000 And some people like, yeah, you know, contributing in other ways. 20:07.000 --> 20:11.000 They make videos, they make, or they make content for the game. 20:11.000 --> 20:16.000 And it's hard to keep track of everything they do. 20:16.000 --> 20:20.000 So I'd say the community is probably like 200 people. 20:20.000 --> 20:28.000 But in terms of like actual contribution, like we're more like six, seven people. 20:28.000 --> 20:31.000 So there are like six, seven people that are really focused on the game 20:31.000 --> 20:33.000 and that they do a lot of stuff. 20:33.000 --> 20:36.000 And then there are a lot of people who do small things for the game. 20:36.000 --> 20:38.000 Yeah, I wouldn't say a lot of stuff. 20:38.000 --> 20:43.000 I would say small things and sometimes they get together and do big things. 20:43.000 --> 20:45.000 That's actually my job as project leader. 20:45.000 --> 20:50.000 Like it's to bring people to do something bigger than just like their own part. 20:50.000 --> 20:55.000 In their own area of expertise. 20:55.000 --> 20:59.000 So for example, designing a new tribe or what would be something bigger? 20:59.000 --> 21:01.000 Yeah, that would take a lot of work. 21:01.000 --> 21:10.000 Like you would take someone doing the history, someone doing the arts, someone doing the art assets, 21:10.000 --> 21:15.000 like all the XML files and stuff like you need to get the civilization to the game. 21:15.000 --> 21:21.000 You probably would need 2D artists to do the icons and stuff. 21:21.000 --> 21:28.000 You need maybe sound to add like, I don't know, maybe new animals that fits the civilization. 21:28.000 --> 21:34.000 And there is a lot of where there are a lot of different jobs that you need to concentrate. 21:34.000 --> 21:36.000 But you don't have to get it all at once. 21:36.000 --> 21:42.000 You can just like do the story part first, then do the art, then get it to the game, 21:42.000 --> 21:45.000 and then like do the final touches. 21:45.000 --> 21:47.000 Okay, I see. 21:47.000 --> 21:53.000 Where will you say is the most contribution needed? 21:53.000 --> 22:00.000 I'd say programming is one of the biggest areas. 22:01.000 --> 22:08.000 When people think programmers, they just think about someone getting behind a keyboard and just like typing code. 22:08.000 --> 22:11.000 But there are actually a lot of jobs there. 22:11.000 --> 22:15.000 We have like AI programmers that we work on the AI. 22:15.000 --> 22:20.000 We have random map programmers. 22:20.000 --> 22:23.000 So there are two types of maps in Z-rated. 22:23.000 --> 22:28.000 There are scrimmage maps and scenario maps, but there are the same type. 22:28.000 --> 22:30.000 And there are random maps. 22:30.000 --> 22:35.000 Scrimmage and scenario maps are made by hand. 22:35.000 --> 22:39.000 You just open the map editor in Z-rated and you place things by hand. 22:39.000 --> 22:43.000 And random maps are made using code. 22:43.000 --> 22:50.000 So you just like script, I don't know, getting some data from OpenStreetMap. 22:51.000 --> 22:57.000 And then that gives you the terrain layouts or you just like code all the mountains yourself and everything. 22:57.000 --> 23:00.000 So that's one area of the code you have to do. 23:00.000 --> 23:05.000 There are like graphics programmers, engine programmers. 23:05.000 --> 23:11.000 Then you have like each OS programming, whatever. 23:11.000 --> 23:16.000 So if you're working with macOS, you need to like have someone who actually got a Mac, 23:16.000 --> 23:21.000 which is usually something that doesn't come by often. 23:21.000 --> 23:24.000 So yeah, there is a lot of specificity everywhere. 23:24.000 --> 23:27.000 And we are maintaining the engine and the game. 23:27.000 --> 23:32.000 So then you have the gameplay programmers that only work on like tiny parts of like, 23:32.000 --> 23:36.000 well, you know, where our units interact. 23:36.000 --> 23:39.000 Like someone who would just like do the secondary attacks. 23:39.000 --> 23:43.000 That would be gameplay programmer. 23:43.000 --> 23:46.000 So yeah, so we need a lot of programmers there. 23:46.000 --> 23:50.000 And we usually need like people who have a bit of experience. 23:50.000 --> 23:53.000 Because a few people learned how to code. 23:53.000 --> 23:57.000 I think I sure did through Z-rated. 23:57.000 --> 24:01.000 But at some point at the end of the day, if you only have like junior people, 24:01.000 --> 24:09.000 you just have got a lot of bugs because you're just going to be trying to make sure everyone is doing that job correctly. 24:09.000 --> 24:12.000 And you just have to keep track of everything. 24:12.000 --> 24:17.000 And you don't get senior by just spending five years on the project. 24:17.000 --> 24:22.000 Because if you keep five years doing the same mistakes, then you're not learning anything. 24:22.000 --> 24:30.000 So yeah, it's important to have like people who have actual experience that have worked with other people that have, 24:30.000 --> 24:35.000 well, the do's and don't about programming. 24:35.000 --> 24:37.000 But we also need artists. 24:37.000 --> 24:38.000 We also need historians. 24:38.000 --> 24:42.000 We also need like some designers and stuff like to make new music. 24:42.000 --> 24:46.000 Artists is just about new making new civilization. 24:46.000 --> 24:47.000 Keep the mood alive. 24:47.000 --> 24:54.000 Like make the community grow and show the true power of the engine. 24:54.000 --> 24:59.000 Yeah, and for artists the same, you have like 3D artists. 24:59.000 --> 25:00.000 You have 2D artists. 25:00.000 --> 25:01.000 You have technical artists. 25:01.000 --> 25:06.000 You have well, you have animators, rigors. 25:06.000 --> 25:10.000 Well, a lot of kind of like specificity jobs and the thing. 25:10.000 --> 25:11.000 You can do everything. 25:11.000 --> 25:15.000 But then you just like, like me, you just ran out of time. 25:15.000 --> 25:20.000 I would like to do a bit of a topic speech. 25:20.000 --> 25:22.000 If that's okay with you. 25:22.000 --> 25:30.000 And I would like to talk a bit more about how zero AD empiricism became free software. 25:30.000 --> 25:31.000 Yeah. 25:31.000 --> 25:32.000 Sure. 25:32.000 --> 25:36.000 What was the, I read that it wasn't always free software. 25:36.000 --> 25:38.000 Or published on air free software license? 25:38.000 --> 25:39.000 No. 25:39.000 --> 25:40.000 Okay. 25:40.000 --> 25:42.000 So yeah, no, it wasn't always free software. 25:42.000 --> 25:44.000 At the beginning, I think. 25:44.000 --> 25:49.000 So it started by edge of vampires' motives and edge of vampires' players. 25:49.000 --> 25:57.000 Getting together to make a game that would be different from edge of vampires with less limitations. 25:57.000 --> 26:00.000 And it was like around the early 2000s. 26:00.000 --> 26:05.000 They came together and started designing things like how they wanted it to be. 26:05.000 --> 26:11.000 We still have the document with all the things they designed during that time. 26:11.000 --> 26:14.000 There are historians, there are people interested in the story. 26:14.000 --> 26:19.000 There are programmers, there are a lot of great people at the time. 26:19.000 --> 26:24.000 And so, well, they started working on it as amateurs. 26:24.000 --> 26:28.000 They worked on it for about nine years, like from 2009. 26:28.000 --> 26:31.000 The problem was that when you work for something for so long, 26:31.000 --> 26:34.000 then life starts getting in the way. 26:34.000 --> 26:37.000 A lot of people came and went. 26:37.000 --> 26:39.000 People got married. 26:39.000 --> 26:41.000 People died too. 26:41.000 --> 26:46.000 One of the original founders died to cancer in 2006. 26:46.000 --> 26:53.000 And so, well, the focus shifted for a lot of people during their own lives. 26:53.000 --> 27:01.000 And they ended up realizing that they could not bring their dream to be real in the current state. 27:01.000 --> 27:05.000 So they said, what if we make it open source? 27:05.000 --> 27:07.000 Maybe people would be interested. 27:07.000 --> 27:14.000 And maybe we can continue to, I don't know, like, yeah, make it better. 27:14.000 --> 27:18.000 And it worked because like 10 years later, I'm still there. 27:18.000 --> 27:25.000 I only joined in 2011, so I wasn't there at the time of the open source thing of the game. 27:25.000 --> 27:28.000 The release, as some people say. 27:28.000 --> 27:35.000 So yeah, they decided to make it open source for that reason, to keep it alive, I think. 27:35.000 --> 27:39.000 The more information can be found on the website. 27:39.000 --> 27:44.000 Okay, do you know if the migration, thank you very much for this quick recap. 27:44.000 --> 27:52.000 Do you know how the migration process went, like, better any hurdles, or did it all that very smoothly? 27:52.000 --> 28:03.000 I don't think it was that hard, but it must have been easy either, because they had like assets that were proprietary, 28:03.000 --> 28:08.000 that they had to replace or buy licenses to be able to use them. 28:08.000 --> 28:13.000 Because as soon as you make everything open source, like, it gets open source forever, 28:13.000 --> 28:19.000 and you can't, like, deprive somebody from their artistic rights and stuff like this. 28:19.000 --> 28:25.000 It, it depends on the country, but in, for instance, in France, like, if I make an art piece, 28:25.000 --> 28:28.000 I cannot concede all my rights to it. 28:28.000 --> 28:30.000 I'm not allowed by the law. 28:30.000 --> 28:37.000 I can, like, at any time, like, revoke the rights to it, because I'm the sole creator. 28:37.000 --> 28:42.000 And it, it depends on the legislation in the, in the country. 28:42.000 --> 28:45.000 So they probably had, like, some troubles with that. 28:45.000 --> 28:50.000 Then you need to get all the contributors that contributed for nine years to accept, 28:50.000 --> 28:58.000 to release their work, kind of for free, like, and to allow people to edit, modify, and change things. 28:58.000 --> 29:05.000 So it might have taken a long time to get everyone up to speed and to agree to things. 29:05.000 --> 29:11.000 Okay. So it did take at some times, but you wouldn't say there'd ever any big hurdles. 29:11.000 --> 29:14.000 No. 29:14.000 --> 29:22.000 What would you say is the main advantage of developing a free software game? 29:22.000 --> 29:27.000 I'd say it's the possibilities. 29:27.000 --> 29:34.000 If you develop a commercial game, then you have to please the shareholders. 29:34.000 --> 29:39.000 You have to reason time. You have to do things that will work. 29:39.000 --> 29:45.000 Whereas we can just, like, break everything, because just test things, see if that work doesn't. 29:45.000 --> 29:55.000 It does know we have no, like, restrictions on what we can do. 29:55.000 --> 30:03.000 Yeah, it's just, like, we're free to do whatever we want, but the price is only time. 30:03.000 --> 30:09.000 Because at the end of the day, you still have to invest in time. You want to be able to do things. 30:09.000 --> 30:13.000 Okay. So you would say it's like you have to sortistic freedom. 30:13.000 --> 30:17.000 Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a crazy, it's a crazy freedom. 30:17.000 --> 30:22.000 Like, as I said, there was, there are so many modes about the game, like, you can work on any of them, 30:22.000 --> 30:27.000 you can even make them the main game you want to. Like, everything's possible. 30:27.000 --> 30:33.000 Okay. Then I would come to my last question. 30:33.000 --> 30:38.000 This has sadly nothing to do with zero AD anymore. 30:38.000 --> 30:43.000 Every year on the 14th of February, the FSFE organizes the ILOF free software day, 30:43.000 --> 30:48.000 as you have probably heard, because we are producing this podcast for the ILOF free software day. 30:48.000 --> 30:55.000 And the ILOF free software day is a chance to say, thank you to contributors to free software projects 30:55.000 --> 31:00.000 and yeah, to say, thank you for their work and their contribution. 31:00.000 --> 31:05.000 And my question is, who would you like to say thank you to? 31:05.000 --> 31:11.000 Well, so that's easy. I'd like to thank the free software foundationer for letting me do this podcast. 31:11.000 --> 31:22.000 But yeah, I'd like to thank mostly all the people who created theory for giving me such a great hobby. 31:22.000 --> 31:29.000 And I'd like to do like this. This is really cool. 31:29.000 --> 31:35.000 And yeah, so yeah, I'd like to thank all the people I'm working with right now for zero AD, 31:35.000 --> 31:40.000 because it wouldn't be possible without you either. 31:40.000 --> 31:41.000 Thank you, Sven. 31:41.000 --> 31:42.000 You're welcome. 31:42.000 --> 31:49.000 And thank you for your time. It was really nice having you as a guest for the ILOF free software day podcast episode. 31:49.000 --> 31:52.000 I hope I will talk to you in the future again. 31:52.000 --> 31:56.000 Me too. Maybe you will meet someday. I don't know. 31:56.000 --> 31:58.000 This was the software freedom podcast. 31:58.000 --> 32:04.000 If you liked this episode, please recommend it to your friends and subscribe to make sure you will get the next episode. 32:04.000 --> 32:08.000 This podcast is presented to you by the free software foundation Europe. 32:08.000 --> 32:11.000 We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom. 32:11.000 --> 32:15.000 If you like our work, please consider supporting us with our donation. 32:15.000 --> 32:19.000 You find more information on the FSFE.org slash donate. 32:19.000 --> 32:21.000 Bye bye.